Original Coverage & Source Attribution: www.pbs.org
Geoff Bennett:
For perspective, we turn now to David Kramer, who held a number of senior positions at the State Department during the George W. Bush administration. He’s now executive director of the George W. Bush Institute in Dallas, Texas.
Thank you for joining us.
David Kramer, Former U.S. Assistant Secretary of State: Thank you.
Geoff Bennett:
Let’s start with this apparent reset, because, just days ago, as you well know, President Trump, President Zelensky appeared to be at a breaking point. Today, Zelenskyy says the critical U.S. intelligence sharing has been restored.
You have European leaders talking about getting diplomacy back on track. Is this a genuine reset or simply a temporary reprieve?
David Kramer:
It’s hard to say. I certainly hope it is more than temporary, because Ukraine has been suffering as a result of some of the disruptions in provision of intelligence, the Starlink and Starshield that Nick referred to, and Ukrainians have been losing their lives as a result.
The war, let’s not forget, was started by Putin initially in 2014, on a full-scale level in 2022. He is the one who has refused to negotiate and bring about an end to the war that he started. Ukraine and Zelenskyy have demonstrated repeatedly a willingness and flexibility to end the war and to end the suffering that the Ukrainian people have been enduring.
Geoff Bennett:
And we have seen this cycle before, a confrontation between Trump and Zelenskyy, followed by efforts to repair that relationship.
What does that recurring pattern suggest about the fundamental challenge in the U.S.-Ukraine relationship right now?
David Kramer:
It’s a strained relationship. We go back in this current administration to the February 28, 2025, infamous White House blowup, where the president and President Zelenskyy were essentially shouting at each other.
And then the relationship got better, on a better track, and the United States imposed some sanctions on Lukoil and Rosneft, the two largest Russian energy companies. But, more recently, we have seen rhetoric coming out of Washington that suggests that the war is Ukraine’s fault.
Ukraine has been the victim of Russian aggression. That Zelenskyy and Ukraine refused to end the war. Putin is the one who refuses to end the war. And so there’s been this seesaw that I think has been both exhausting and unnerving for the Ukrainians, but also deadly, because Russia is taking advantage of this and continues its strikes against Ukrainian civilian targets.
Geoff Bennett:
What do you believe Putin understands about President Trump that allows Putin to really shape President Trump’s approach to this war?
David Kramer:
I think, on the Russian side, they have been dangling the prospect of improved U.S.-Russian relations, whether it’s for business deals, nuclear negotiations. Of course, President Putin has offered the possibility of a summit meeting in Beijing next month, when President Trump will travel there for a major international conference.
And the idea of Putin, Xi, the Chinese leader, and President Trump meeting to discuss Ukraine without Ukraine is something the Ukrainians would have great difficulty accepting.
Geoff Bennett:
What is in Russia’s interest? What is Russia’s incentive to end this war? Putin has suffered enormous battlefield losses. Russia’s economy has come under considerable strain, and yet he continues fighting. Why?
David Kramer:
Putin doesn’t view Ukraine as a truly independent state? He said this as early as 2008 to President Bush when they met in Sochi.
He wants to put Ukraine under Russia’s thumb. He wants to destroy Ukraine’s identity. He wants to remove the duly elected government in Ukraine, President Zelenskyy, whose term has gone beyond its mandate, but that’s because Ukraine had to declare a martial law because of Russia’s invasion.
And Putin wants to deny Ukraine the ability to choose its own future, to determine whether it wants to be a member of NATO or the European Union, and it wants to reduce its military. Putin essentially wants to eviscerate Ukrainian identity, sovereignty, territorial integrity and independence. And that’s obviously something that Ukrainians find wholly unacceptable.
Geoff Bennett:
Would additional American pressure change Putin’s calculations at this point?
David Kramer:
I think it is the way to end this war. I think it involves tightening sanctions, going after the shadow fleet that Russia depends on to bring in funding for its war effort. It includes going after Russian banks and more companies and individuals.
It also includes resuming military assistance, whether it’s through the system that the Europeans purchase American weapons and then provide those to the Ukrainians or direct military assistance. We have to remember that the U.S. Congress passed the Lindsey Graham legislation calling for more sanctions by 86-11 in the Senate and a sizable margin in the House.
Americans, surveys show, support Ukraine. And so I hope that we will understand that pressure on Putin, not on Ukraine or Zelenskyy, pressure on Putin is the way to try to bring about an end to the war that the president has been talking about since he returned to office.
Geoff Bennett:
And you, of course, served in a Republican administration that viewed American leadership, support for Democratic allies, resistance to Russian aggression as fundamental national security interests.
How do you explain, how do you understand the transformation of Republican foreign policy under President Trump?
David Kramer:
Well, there has been a major change. And America first places the priority on different issues.
But I think there should be consistency throughout in recognizing that Ukraine is the country we should be supporting. Zelenskyy is the one who offered us assistance when Iranian Shahed drones were hitting American targets in the Middle East after the war started there. The Ukrainians have been the ones who are fighting for their freedom, but they’re also fighting for our freedom, given what Russia has been doing to the rest of Europe, even in the United States.
And so supporting Ukraine, I think, serves U.S. national interests and is something that every Republican and every Democrat, for that matter, should get behind.
Geoff Bennett:
David Kramer, executive director of the George W. Bush Institute, speaking to us from Dallas, Texas, this evening, thank you for your insights. Great to speak with you.
David Kramer:
Appreciate it. Thank you.
